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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.11.03 12:00:00 -
[1]
First take a look at the graph: here
I think there currently is little reason to use a minmatar battleship for close combat. Maybe if you manage to stay at 17,5 - 20 km, but its pretty silly imo. Whatever happened to blasters being CLOSE RANGE? The gallente ships are covering almost the entire warp disruptor range with their higher dps. Whats the point of autocannons again?
The game is balanced (minnie vs gallente) on cruiser level, but the battleship level needs some work.
Just to experiment, I made a graph where t2 large null ammo got -25% optimal range instead of the +25% optimal range it has now. Have a look here. Doesnt that look more like where blasters should be? I think maybe raise their damage even more would be a good idea if they had that range.
I just want autocannons to get back in the game, and I dont care if blasters outdamage them totally up close. Thats fine. What I dont like is for minnie ships to have to stay at the edge of 20 km to outdamage blasters, which are supposed to be close range, but really arent today.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:03:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 13:04:13
 Originally by: starship enginer
still trying to pull the wool over peoples eyes jim?
i keep telling you , you can not compaire a weapon system by itself, you need to do the whole ship into account, you could argue that a carrier does pants DPS which is true since a bs can outdamage it, but it tanks much better, tell the full picture
although i do agree with you, null did have too high a range.
also remember tux said he was going to remove all missile dmg bonus and build them into the missiles, thats gona help the tempest while not the megathron [although most temp pilots fit dual nosf in high rather than siege/crusie launchers]
Well, im just looking at the damage and the range here. And I somehow doubt that the Tempest out-tanks a megathron? :) Tanking is very important though. Ships like the Raven doesnt have the highest dps, but win 9/10 anyway because of its excellent tank and the fact that its always in range to do damage.
I do agree that its difficult to show the entire picture, but im not intentionally trying to deceive people. Its just difficult to compare all aspects of ships and weapons. But I have to try. :)
Anyway, my point is that blasters going to almost 20 km with damage superiority makes autocannons pretty useless imo. Blasters should have shorter range, but possibly even higher damage.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/11/2006 13:08:41
Ok, that's it.
Any 1v1 comparison (especially limited to only damage output as this one) is utterly invalid to balance discussions.
Why do you self-declared balance-defenders come up with these time after ******* time ?
So what is the tempest has to stay at 15+km to outdamage ? Don't you quite remember that nearly no fights every happen within 15km anyway ? Or that the tempest has some rather neat advantages in the realm of medslots, tanking and maybe free highlots or variable damage types ? What happens when each brought a frigate friend that webs the two BS at a distance of 19.4 km from eachother ? Who kills the enemy frig first ? Who has the buddy with the tracking disruptor II ? Who has the buddy that kills the other's drones ?
Don't you see that any 1v1 comparison is invariably a failure seeing how even the effect of fitting a single module that isn't expected is many times greater then that of the exact difference in damage at 14.7km distance ? Let alone basing balance on 1v1 when the true reasoning for people choosing ships over others is more dependent on it's role within groups or it's ability to fit inside those groups then it's 1v1 damage output or whatever ?
Please, stop fooling yourselves. This is exactly why this forum has become a farce rather then a usefull place to discuss balance.
So your arguments are basicly:
* Fights at less than 20 km is rare so it doesnt matter that blasters are better than autocannons within almost the entire warp disruptor range.
* There are modules in the game that matters more than the ships themselfs, so having balance in the weapon systems are meaningless. People can fit unexpected mods, or bring friends, to win.
* Balance shouldnt be attempted for 1 vs 1 combat, even within the same class.
Well, what can I say... I dont think I agree with any of it. Yes, its possible to overcome some of the problems with modules (tracking disruptors etc), but is it fair that t2 blasters have this amazing range and damage?
If you look at cruiser balancing, you will see Thorax having fantastic dps up close (up to about 12 km I think), and the Rupture has higher dps from there on. Thats the kind of balance that works imo.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:38:00 -
[4]
Rod, there is a solution to your range problem: Railguns. Blasters are supposed to be really close range weapons ffs. You dont give them great dps and range because most fights take place at medium range? Thats what railguns are for!
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 13:56:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 13:57:39
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Let go of that scrambler range focus and look at things a bit more carefully and you see that not outperforming at <17.5km is not neccesarily the end. That not winning 1v1's with cookie-cutter setups against Megathrons is not neccesarily the end.
Well, the scrambler range is basicly why Im whining tbh. If warp disruptor range was 30 km, then minmatar autocannon ships would definently have a nice role in the game again. You could hold someone while fighting them, in the exact same manner that the gallente ships can do today.
So either increase warp disruptor range to allow minmatar ships to fight at THEIR optimal, not gallentes. Or decrease large blaster range.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 14:00:09
Originally by: Pan Crastus
How do you make those graphs, and do they take reloading times into account? (they make projectile guns even worse compared to hybrids)
Im using NB's excel spread sheet (here). And projectiles are worse than hybrids.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 14:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Any 1v1 comparison (especially limited to only damage output as this one) is utterly invalid to balance discussions.
Couldn't agree more. It's not like 1 vs 1 battleship fights happen so often.. And there's a lot more to ships than DPS and range, enough of that please.
Maybe it happens for OTHER people?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:52:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/11/2006 15:56:33
Originally by: Nyxus
Edited by: Nyxus on 03/11/2006 15:46:35
Forget 30km disruptors.
Get those T1 40km BS sized disruptors available asap. That way the Mega, Tempest, AND Geddon have a chance to fight at thier optimals ranges.
Remember how Pulse geddons ruled 20km fights before T2 ammo? It was partly becuase they fought in thier optimal where 90% of random pvp occurs. T2 ammo just allowed the Mega to do the same thing since pulses were nerfed, only with much greater damage.
I guess one pertinent question here is "What is close range for a battleship?" Blasters are specialty close range weapons. Is 20km "close range for battleships?"
But imho 30km and 40km BS disruptors would help.....a lot.
Nyxus
I agree. But im not surprised the gallente crowd doesnt. Because if I had a choice, I would fight the gallente ships at 30-40 km EVERY TIME in a minmatar ship.
Edit: Btw, the mega already fights in its optimal range. Its the Tempests etc that doesnt.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.03 15:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: webkert
Its not just ACs vs blasters.
I know, but I dont know much about lasers. You are very welcome to add to the discussion. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 08:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Goumindong
This is why Null got such a large tracking nerf, because now at that distance Null has half the tracking of AC's where previously it had 20% more.
I.E. now you can outrun a null fitted blasterboat due to its low tracking.
I dont think the tracking nerf will have much effect, because the gallente ship will try to approach, and the minmatar ship have to try to keep distance. That means that the minmatar ship will be moving away from the gallente ship with almost 0 transversal velocity.
But we'll see. I would have rather seen a optimal range reduction like I shown in the graph. I think it looked pretty good...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.11.04 08:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nyxus
The sheer thought of crows orbiting at 35km scrambling makes me want to vomit. NOOOOOOoooooooooooo! Make it use 500 grid so its not slapped on to inties.
I agree. They should implement different size warp disruptors for different size ships. It also makes sense that frigate sized ones arent as powerful as battleship ones.
Frigate warp disruptor - 20 km
Cruiser warp disruptor - 25 km
Battleship warp disruptor - 30 km
Good, no?
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